<div dir="ltr">What Nick said! <div><br></div><div>Martin</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 7:15 AM Nick Hilliard (INEX) <<a href="mailto:nick@inex.ie">nick@inex.ie</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Right, ok. That paper was based on Nick Feamster's ideas from around <br>
2013 - 2014. So there are two things here: 1) using openflow to program <br>
basic frame forwarding rules based on mac addresses, which has been done <br>
successfully at Toulouse IX and one or two other exchanges and 2) using <br>
openflow to implement internal IXP forwarding decisions and filtering <br>
based on higher level policy rules.<br>
<br>
There was a lively discussion about issue #2 at a Euro-IX meeting a <br>
couple of years ago. The general feeling from the IXP community was <br>
that imposing traffic routing policy at layer 2 wouldn't scale in <br>
production because IXP switches are typically resource-constrained. <br>
I.e. you would only be able to install a tiny number of rules before the <br>
switch would run out of hardware capacity to handle them. Obviously this <br>
stage would depend on what switch hardware was in use, but you could <br>
rule out using cost effective top-of-rack equipment and you'd need to <br>
start thinking about running overlays on layer 3 NPU based equipment. <br>
It would be quite expensive, per port.<br>
<br>
The second outcome from that meeting came from the IXP participants who <br>
were there. The exact words used by one major hyperscale person were: <br>
"Don't touch our traffic!".<br>
<br>
Despite BGP's well-known and well-understood shortcomings, they made it <br>
clear that the job of an IXP operator was to forward frames between the <br>
specified source and destination routers, and nothing more. All the <br>
hyperscales and large content networks have their own clear ideas about <br>
how they want their traffic to be forwarded around the place. They were <br>
crystal clear that they absolutely did not want IXPs interfering their <br>
policy routing decisions, any more than they would want the passengers <br>
in the bus fighting over control of the steering wheel: it tends not to <br>
end up well.<br>
<br>
Nick<br>
<br>
<br>
Haider Ali wrote on 11/07/2019 10:00:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>
> From: *Haider Ali* <<a href="mailto:haiderrana45@gmail.com" target="_blank">haiderrana45@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:haiderrana45@gmail.com" target="_blank">haiderrana45@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Date: Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 1:51 PM<br>
> Subject: Re: [ixpmanager] IXP Manager Developer Support<br>
> To: <<a href="mailto:mahtin@mahtin.com" target="_blank">mahtin@mahtin.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mahtin@mahtin.com" target="_blank">mahtin@mahtin.com</a>>><br>
> Cc: INEX IXP Manager Users Mailing List <<a href="mailto:ixpmanager@inex.ie" target="_blank">ixpmanager@inex.ie</a> <br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ixpmanager@inex.ie" target="_blank">ixpmanager@inex.ie</a>>>, Barry O'Donovan <<a href="mailto:barry.odonovan@inex.ie" target="_blank">barry.odonovan@inex.ie</a> <br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:barry.odonovan@inex.ie" target="_blank">barry.odonovan@inex.ie</a>>><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Dear Nick,<br>
> <br>
> I couldn't see your message in my inbox yesterday. When I saw the <br>
> mailing list, then saw some other unread messages too. Thanks for your <br>
> reply Nick.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> This paper is focused on your answer: <br>
> <a href="https://sites.cs.ucsb.edu/~arpitgupta/pdfs/sdx.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sites.cs.ucsb.edu/~arpitgupta/pdfs/sdx.pdf</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://sites.cs.ucsb.edu/%7Earpitgupta/pdfs/sdx.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sites.cs.ucsb.edu/%7Earpitgupta/pdfs/sdx.pdf</a>><br>
> <br>
> Summary of this paper and my requirement:<br>
> <br>
> The three limitations of BGP are following which can be solved by <br>
> Software-defined exchange point:<br>
> • Routing only on destination IP prefix. BGP selects and exports <br>
> routes for destination prefixes. Networks cannot make more fine-grained <br>
> decisions based on the type of application or the sender. Type of <br>
> decisions may be application-specific peering, inbound traffic <br>
> engineering, server load balancing, and traffic redirection through <br>
> middleboxes<br>
> • Influence only over direct neighbors. A network selects among BGP <br>
> routes learned from its direct neighbors, and exports selected routes to <br>
> these neighbors. Networks have little control over end-to-end paths.<br>
> • Indirect expression of policy. Networks rely on indirect, obscure <br>
> mechanisms (e.g., “local preference”, “AS Path Prepending”) to influence <br>
> path selection. Networks cannot directly express preferred inbound and <br>
> outbound paths.<br>
> *I am more interested in the application specific peering and traffic <br>
> redirection through middleboxes. An application can be youtube and <br>
> middlebox can be a scrubber.<br>
> *<br>
> Its a whole paper to understand how SDN can help IXP. But for instance, <br>
> I want to route my traffic of youtube or Netflix (which is very high <br>
> these days) through some fixed route or routers then IXP won't help in <br>
> it as far as I know because it is assumed as a dumb switch. Instead, SDN <br>
> will help. The controller of SDN will tell to switch about the peering <br>
> or forwarding to required middleboxes etc will be compelling applications.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> *For now, I just wanted to know that how should one start as a developer <br>
> if one intends to understand ixp manager and then convert to Sdn based <br>
> ixp manager.*<br>
> <br>
> The first goal I set is to connect my SDN based IXP (in which there is a <br>
> controller and switch) with IXP manager. I have built an SDN based <br>
> controller and switch with route server etc on OpenFlow. I needed an <br>
> interface on which ISPs come and *choose the policies *(which is <br>
> automatic step). I chose IXP manager for that.<br>
> <br>
> *Kindly guide me.*<br>
> I appreciate your help Martin and Barry.<br>
> <br>
> -Haider<br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 1:34 PM Haider Ali <<a href="mailto:haiderrana45@gmail.com" target="_blank">haiderrana45@gmail.com</a> <br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:haiderrana45@gmail.com" target="_blank">haiderrana45@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Thanks for the help, Barry.<br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 1:31 PM Barry O'Donovan<br>
> <<a href="mailto:barry.odonovan@inex.ie" target="_blank">barry.odonovan@inex.ie</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:barry.odonovan@inex.ie" target="_blank">barry.odonovan@inex.ie</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Haider,<br>
> <br>
> thanks for the detail below. I would suggest next time introducing<br>
> yourself as you have below from the beginning. The cost/benefit of<br>
> finding the time to help a student project (how it sounded to<br>
> me) is<br>
> vastly different to trying to help IXPs in Pakistan.<br>
> <br>
> I'll await your reply to Martin on what you're hoping to achieve<br>
> and<br>
> then see where we can help.<br>
> <br>
> Note there are a number of development emails around Laravel and<br>
> SDN /<br>
> OpenFlow / FAUCET in the archives of this mailing list. I<br>
> suggest you<br>
> start with them also and then follow up.<br>
> <br>
> - Barry<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Haider Ali wrote on 10/07/2019 09:25:<br>
> > Sorry to disturb you Barry.<br>
> ><br>
> > It's not a college project. I do have experience in PHP. I do<br>
> have<br>
> > experience in full stack development. I am new to IXP but I<br>
> have a team<br>
> > who have experience in IXP. Learning IXP is not an issue. I<br>
> have some<br>
> > knowledge of OpenFlow too. Laravel Programming isn't that<br>
> difficult. My<br>
> > question was where to start as a developer. If you don't have<br>
> time then<br>
> > kindly give me the source material on this. Like I have seen<br>
> things in<br>
> > the documentation for development.<br>
> ><br>
> > This project is for the IXP at Islamabad, Pakistan. They do<br>
> many things<br>
> > manually. We have the funding to make that IXP the<br>
> software-defined<br>
> > exchange point. I am a research assistant on my part under the<br>
> > government IT advisor and a Stanford doctorate Dr. Zartash<br>
> Afzal Uzmi.<br>
> ><br>
> > Although my knowledge could be low, I am working at the<br>
> country level.<br>
> > We intend to deploy two or more IXPs in the future in Pakistan.<br>
> ><br>
> > With your little help, we at Pakistan can deploy your project<br>
> and can<br>
> > add value to your project of IXP Manager by making it SDN<br>
> based IXP manager.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 1:04 PM Barry O'Donovan<br>
> <<a href="mailto:barry.odonovan@inex.ie" target="_blank">barry.odonovan@inex.ie</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:barry.odonovan@inex.ie" target="_blank">barry.odonovan@inex.ie</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:barry.odonovan@inex.ie" target="_blank">barry.odonovan@inex.ie</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:barry.odonovan@inex.ie" target="_blank">barry.odonovan@inex.ie</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi Haider,<br>
> ><br>
> > please do correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you<br>
> have no real<br>
> > experience in IXPs in general or PHP / Laravel<br>
> programming? Is this<br>
> > perhaps a college project or something for you?<br>
> ><br>
> > Unfortunately I just do not have the time / bandwidth /<br>
> spare cycles to<br>
> > assist with such a project. Others on this list may - but<br>
> I do not. I<br>
> > just want to be upfront with you on this so you do not<br>
> mistake my lack<br>
> > of or limited participation in this discussion as being<br>
> rude or<br>
> > purposely unhelpful. It's purely a lack of available time.<br>
> ><br>
> > - Barry<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Haider Ali wrote on 10/07/2019 08:36:<br>
> > > Dear Sir/Madam,<br>
> > > I want to understand how route server is<br>
> > configured at<br>
> > > the backend of IXP manager. Also, I want to understand the<br>
> > frontend of<br>
> > > each and everything in the IXP manager.<br>
> > > I have just installed the IXP manager. *How should I<br>
> start as a<br>
> > developer? *<br>
> > > I have the vague view that I have to inspect every<br>
> HTML frontend and<br>
> > > then go to its backend file. But don't know where<br>
> these files<br>
> > reside in<br>
> > > the system.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > *I have to first understand the IXP manager that how<br>
> is it linked<br>
> > to the<br>
> > > route server and how is route server configured. Help<br>
> me with<br>
> > this part<br>
> > > please first.*<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Then my *primary purpose or future goal *is to make an<br>
> SDN based<br>
> > > exchange point. If anyone has any little experience in<br>
> it then<br>
> > share,<br>
> > > please.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Sincerely,<br>
> > > Haider Ali<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > INEX IXP Manager mailing list<br>
> > > <a href="mailto:ixpmanager@inex.ie" target="_blank">ixpmanager@inex.ie</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ixpmanager@inex.ie" target="_blank">ixpmanager@inex.ie</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ixpmanager@inex.ie" target="_blank">ixpmanager@inex.ie</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ixpmanager@inex.ie" target="_blank">ixpmanager@inex.ie</a>>><br>
> > > Unsubscribe or change options here:<br>
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> > ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> ><br>
> > Kind regards,<br>
> > Barry O'Donovan<br>
> > INEX Operations<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="https://www.inex.ie/support/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.inex.ie/support/</a><br>
> > +353 1 531 3339<br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> <br>
> Kind regards,<br>
> Barry O'Donovan<br>
> INEX Operations<br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://www.inex.ie/support/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.inex.ie/support/</a><br>
> +353 1 531 3339<br>
> <br>
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</blockquote></div>